the Glocal Trekker Blog

Good idea. My question is since people in the West are generally more institutional and structurally minded than the East, would we see the spontaneous emergence of the Church that they see in the East. Or do we have to be more intentional about "starting a church" in the West?
 

I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with our ecclesiology?

What I mean is: Even in Baptist life there is a demarcation between clergy and laity. Granted, there can be seen a strong distaste for it in our history, but it is still there.

If you are clergy, you know - the "official/vocational" ministry type; then you worry about making a living from this stuff. We have spouses, children, homes, dogs/cats, vehicles to pay for...that's a very expensive lifestyle. (No wonder the catholic priests are single!) And, it is all something we worry about.

You really don't get paid from movements. You get paid from an institution. We are so worried about living the american dream, that maybe it stunts our spiritual growth - big time! These worries of the world really do strangle out things of God, or so it would seem.

For movements to get started, perhaps we need a lot more bivocational ministers out there. That don't have to worry about finding their funding from the church. Or, maybe even better; we drop the dichotomy between laity and clergy, getting our laity to plant churches. Sure, they may not get that neet M.Div. degree; but they may make more effective Kingdom Ministers.

Tim Dahl
 

I love these insights...I believe if we desire to see a movement in the west it will be totally birthed by the Holy Spirit- when He is moving- no man or model gets the credit. It is unbridled. We are praying for that to come here in Ft. Worth. I also believe the movement will be led by an Army of Ordinary people more so than clergy, who are totally transformed by Christ and impacting their community. This can only be done by the Holy Spirit transforming a person's life from the inside out.I think the most important job of a Pastor would be to Unleash believers into the world to go and make disciples. Help them do what they are called to do.
 

Thanks Bob for the blog - we just hosted one of our apostolic leaders from east Africa who started with less groups than us in 99 and has now out multiplied us by approximatelly 20 times. He challenged our apathy and our culutural business and materialistic idolatry. This man considers me his mentor but as I listened to him share with us about his story and the "movement" - (my words not his of course) that God is doing through him - I was humbled.

His thoughts and experiences seemed so simple and he can't articulate things near as well as I can but his fruit is pure - While mine has worms and is a lot like Red Apples. We have focused so much on the external beauty that the meat tastes like crap!

Thanks man - We think we have all the answers but the reality is I have a lot to learn about following Jesus.

Guy - CCC - Globalocal - Houston, Tx. and Northeastern Africa
 

Thanks Bob...this actually confirms much of the cloudiness in my head. I appreciate these statements coming from a "mega-church" pastor (I know you probably hate that term, but it's true)...b/c you "have it all" (tongue in cheek) and are in no way saying "do it like I've done it". Instead, you are encouraging us to look to God and what he is doing in the East.
 

Thank you, Bob, for sharing the insight many of us might overlook---or miss out on an encounter to be "reawakened" to this truth that God is the author of movements--they are His and the churches are His. Unfortunately, as i read, i immediately began to scan for ideas to implement. Isn't that the tension--seeing our responsibility but knowing God must work.

When i moved to Oklahoma City to start (about 2 years ago) it seems i was more comfortable with this tension. I was firmly planted in a sense of 'no more models and no more elaborate strategies'---prayer, relationships, love for God and others---'this would be our mission'. Since that time it's a constant fight not to make being a pastor the career i either succeed or fail at. I'm confident that i'm to be a follower of Jesus who is willing to, by God's grace, say "i'm the chief of sinners" on one hand and "imitate me" on the other. Maybe we can be shaken enough to leave behind some of this tension and see clearly the things you are finding in the East.

May God continue to bless you as you influence so many leaders to engage the world. May we each experience for ourselves what God is writing in His GLOBAL MOVEMENT.

scott scrivner
 

I think we have to be more intentional here(the U.S.) because of the context from which we live. We believe we are churched. We have church on TV, radio, on every corner, and we have over 88% of our population who "believe in God" according to Barna's latest poll...and yet our churches are declining. I think we have to have a balanace between being intentially missional and not making it industralized. Speaking for myself I have to think intentionally...I was raised in the church culture as a kid and rejected it. But when I think of church I think of it in terms of traditional church. After I became a christian I was reaching people naturally for years before God called me to be a "Pastor". I've had to step back because my idea of who a Pasor is was branded in my childhood mind. Over the past 3 years God has challeneged me to go back to the old me(pastor) before I became a "Pastor". Back to the me that was a pastor to my freinds and co-workers that I was reaching for Christ before I was labeled and before I labeled myself. Now this is where it becomes intentional. I have to fight the cultural label and the label I gave myself. I think we all do in this cultural context... Lay people verses pastors. We are intentional because it has to be retaught to our society what this means. It also has to be retaught that we are the church and not that we go to church. I don't think that people in Vietnam have to deal with these pre-exisiting conceptions of church, pastors, and lay people. And the more we reach and re-teach...the more churches we will see exploding in coffee shops, bars, homes, jobs, etc.
 

Hi Bob,

Great post! When God moves, who can stand in the way? I think the western church will continue to flounder, even with our best efforts and prayers, because our culture does not contain the elements necessary for explosive work of the Spirit. In no way do I mean to limit what the Spirit can do in the west, but it seems currently and through history that God has worked in these explosive ways when the greater culture has pain, persecution or poverty. (Yeah, I should change them to start with different letters, I know.) Currently the west is remarkably healthy, wealthy and free as a whole. (there are clear exceptions to this, but as a whole I think this is true.) On a personal level, God has worked in my life through difficult times, but I struggle to depend on him when things are easier. I currently serve a wonderful church in the suburbs, but we are so wrapped up in freedom, materialism and good health we struggle to know our dire need for Christ on a daily, moment by moment level. I'm thankful for Christians around the world who can expose our shallowness and teach us how God moves and how to depend on him
 

Hey Bob,

I think these are important observations. I've always struggled with the line between learning about something and doing it - moving knowledge into action/obedience. I look forward to seeing these insights unpacked in future posts.

Thanks.

-Paul.
 

These are all good questions - for me - my response is to move my feet and build what I need as I move. Theologically I believe it is moving in the pilgrim moment with God. Practically it is moving in the faith mode of discipleship. Neil Cole would say you need structure. It just must be simple and reproducible. Institutions aren't bad - frankly -they're some of the building blocks that hold societies together. The OnMovements blog deals with some of this. BUT, the challenge comes in, when local churches try to act like institutions rather than local communities.
 

i think the westerns are more program oriented the easterns more people oriented. Most westerns have more resources to use, the easterns more lives to share. thank you so much for reaching out to the east! May you see them beyond programs, one soul at a time, just like Jesus.
 

People in the midst of movements are not aware they are in a movement, and have no intent to start a movement. They are, however, intensely aware of the lostness around them. To see a movement we must not focus on reaching a people group, nation, or city, though we may plan to do so. We must focus on reaching the lost around us. One cannot cut down a forest in a moment or all at the same time. Forests are cut down one tree at a time. The same is true of movements. Lost people are reached one at a time and the passion to reach lost people is passed on to each new person reached. The primary step to any movement is people winning lost people to Christ and training them by word and action to do the same. If we commit to winning only one person each year to Christ, and training that person to do the same every year, our world will be Christian within a generation. Movements are a result of the passion to find the lost sheep.
 

Bill Easum wanted to post - but I couldn't - so here you are Bill.

"Bob, its rare I read a blog that is worth readin. This one is not only worth reading but keeping. What you are revealing is a lot of the conversation I hear going on today from the incarnational folks like Alan Hirsch in the Shaping of things to come. Here's my question: do any or most of these unintentional churches wind up with buildings and institutions or are they more like house churches and market place ministries."

ANSWER - Ok Bill - here's my 2cents worth: Yep - some do wind up with buildings and institutions over time. It seems that history bears that out. The buildings and institutions aren't a problem in the early years - it's a generation or few after the initiators have left the scene and over time the vision and ethos of the founding group dissipates.
 

makes sense. It's not really new. Its what Jesus did. If you want to sell something and you're honest, the best way to do it is to have the best product possible. We have tended over the past 100 years to focus less on the product and more on our sales technique

That's bunk.
 

Bob,
Great post and insight. Here's my question: how do we avoid overprocessing, institutionalizing, and programmizing (yes, I am making up words) our mission? Could it be that we commit not to write down our strategy, not to make it a conference, not to podcast it? Instead, should we just do it? I think sometimes we spend more time on the mission statement than on the actual missions. We spend more time becoming a church planting expert and teaching our system to others than actually planting. I've made this mistake but in the church I am now planting, we don't even have core values or mission statements yet. I'm not sure we will get to them anytime soon. We are too busy just making disciples!
 

This is the first time I have read your blog, and it was providential that it happened to be on this topic. You have touched on, what I believe, are some of the key differences between churches emerging in Asia and those that have been established for a long time in the West. The church is missionary by its very nature, thus it is redundant to talk about becoming missional. For a church to not be missional is to deny its own existence! Churches, in many of these movements of which I have had direct or indirect involvement, do not know the terminology, but live it out. Not only is this true about being 'missional' it is also true of other things. For example, the inerrancy or infallibility of Scripture is never an issue for debate. Christians in these movements accept God's Word for what it is! We can make all the excuses we want in the West as to why church cannot be like these we see in these emerging movements, but they are what they are - excuses. It is about time the Western church began to realize that the kingdom of God does not revolve around them. God's kingdom is expanding at an almost exponential rate in some places in Asia. We can either choose to learn from all of this or we can continue to go our own way and ignore what God so desires to teach us.
 

I love it! Thanks for turning on the comments!
 

Something which we have to think about constantly, which those in non-Western countries don't, is how the gospel has actually been hindered by our own culture(s). So, I think there is a lot of "unlearning" that has to take place for us. I don't think we can expect this "organic church" to do anything in the U.S. because people have had a of "Christianity", and a lot of them want to puke. I think that a big part of our mission should be corrective (and repentant), constantly bringing out the errors in our way of thinking and living that are more Western than Christ-like.

rob@fusionokc.com
 

Thanks for the reminder that if we are truly living right we should be drawing people in. I see it here in the Dominican Republic in one to one relationships people are drawn in and yet when it comes to churches here they still struggle to evangelise as people as so busy doing church and not just living life.